Chris & Adam vs The Unknown
Longtime friends Chris and Adam discuss spooks, spectres, monsters, aliens and all sorts of cryptids that stem from eyewitness accounts and folklore. How much of it is true? They take it all head on and give their opinions!
Email us at ChrisandAdamPodcast@gmail.com
Chris & Adam vs The Unknown
Mokele-mbembe
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We kick things off with Fringe Headlines, where Adam shares the remarkable story of a woman who claims that during a near-death experience, she encountered God. Chris then explores a new idea that could bring the search for extraterrestrial life back to the Moon.
Then we head deep into the swamps and rivers of the Congo Basin to investigate one of cryptozoology’s most enduring mysteries: the Mokele-mbembe. Described as a large, reptile-like creature with a long neck and massive body, the legend has fascinated explorers and cryptid hunters for more than a century.
Adam explores the history and geography behind the legend, while Chris dives into the eyewitness accounts and strange encounters that have kept the Mokele-mbembe mystery alive.
Could a dinosaur really have survived in the remote jungles of Africa—or is there another explanation for the creature's legend?
Another journey into the unknown with Chris & Adam vs. The Unknown.
If you're interested in Chris's dinosaur trilogy novels mentioned in this episode, you can find them by clicking here.
Email us at chrisandadampodcast@gmail.com
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The theme music for the show was provided by Fesliyan Studios.
Welcome back to the latest edition of Chris and Adam versus the Unknown. Adam, we're off to a kind of a late start tonight. I've actually been sitting around here watching the Emmys while I wait for you to get home. Who's been winning? Well, you know, there's a television show that I really liked. Really, honestly, that's one of the reasons why I'm watching this. Because I saw the show got lots of nominations. And it honestly, it's it's a supernatural thing, so it kind of falls in line with our with our show and some of the stuff we cover. Have you ever heard of a show called Widow's Bay?
SPEAKER_02I watched the first two episodes.
SPEAKER_01I loved it.
SPEAKER_02I watched them all.
SPEAKER_01Did you like it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I did. Um, there's a podcast that I listen to called Oysters, Clams, and Cockles. Um, they are a Game of Thrones podcast originally, and they just grown into where they review shows. They mostly do HBO shows, but they also do like Severance and a bunch of uh Apple TV shows, and uh they have talked about Widows Bay consistently. So I started watching, and I watched the first two episodes. Uh, I really like is it Matthew Briefs?
SPEAKER_01I really like him, Matthew Ree Reese. Yeah. Um he's really, really good. He actually just won for Best Actor for it. Uh and then with anyone earlier in the show for uh I don't know if you saw The Beast in Me, the limited series on Netflix, which I really liked. He was starting that with Claire Danes. He won that too, so he's already won two Emmys tonight.
SPEAKER_02Uh no, I hadn't seen that. Um I watched the main Netflix shows and every once in a while flip on to something else, but I've got a bunch of TV that I'm trying to catch up on. Foundation's been out over a year. I still hadn't finished foundation.
SPEAKER_01So well, it's Widows Bay's great for people that like the kind of stuff that we talk about. I think people would love that show. Uh, it's one of those shows that got progressively good the further you got into it. It has been renewed for a second season, and it's it's cleaning up on the Emmys tonight. So uh that's our entertainment news for the week. So let's move into our fringe headlines before we get to into tonight's topic. Uh, Adam, you're gonna go first uh with a near-death experience. Uh lady uh claiming she met God.
SPEAKER_02Can I ask you a question? When you selected this story and you saw this picture, what did you think? I thought she looks crazy.
SPEAKER_01Okay, all right. It's making sure it's not just me. She looks crazy. She's wide. I mean, first of all, Unilad is the uh is the periodical that we're getting the story from. They I think they did her dirty here. I'm quite sure. It looks like they took like a snippet from a video, maybe an interview they did with her via video. They could have picked a different screenshot than this.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I agree. All right, so the title there, as uh Chris said, this is from Unilab. Woman Who Nearly Died after Truck Crash recalls meeting God in his life-changing warning warning. All right, so Lou Ann Van Buskirk.
SPEAKER_00What did you say?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's I think that's right.
SPEAKER_01Van Buskirk.
SPEAKER_02That's exactly her name.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I like the name. Van Buskirk. Luann Van Buskirk. It's a it's a mouthful for sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's almost some alliteration in there, but um anyway, she so she was hit by a truck when she was 18 in Michigan, and she suddenly found herself looking down at her body. Um she said she was in um she was struck by a truck, and after believing she had the right-of-way in a four-way turn, um, she said things begin to get strange after the impact, and she soon found herself looking down at the accident scene from above. So she had an out of body experience.
SPEAKER_01And by the way, she but her picture, she looks way, way older than 18 now.
SPEAKER_02So I guess she's Well, yeah, she's much older now.
SPEAKER_01Well, I just thought I would tell that for the listeners. I I guess she's recalling something that happened back when she was eighteen.
SPEAKER_02So after the wreck, she realized what was happening. She said she ended up meeting God, nearly being adopted and dragged to hell, and more. So she had quite the out-of-body experience.
SPEAKER_01That was a that was a movie, Drag Me to Hell. Yes. It almost happened to her. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, so in a conversation, uh, this there's a podcast or a YouTube show called God Encounters with Janie Duval. Uh Van Buskart recounted how she'd been on her bike when she was hit and flew at a speed to the ground, and she was just on into a world like no other. She explained how she had looked down to see gnarly fingers wrapped around her arm as she was being forced to go someplace. That sounds very much like dragging me to hell, but but carry on. She's now 61, so this was well over 40 years ago, as you mentioned. Right. Um, she said she's sure this was evil. Uh, she said it had taken her to a city covered in yellow fog. Although she couldn't resist the thing that had a hold of her, she said something above her taking notice of suddenly a thunder cracked and a sound like nothing she'd heard before began. Except uh she understood what it was trying to say. Uh it was saying as it was God. She had previously mocked the belief in God there, um, and she says that God was uh upset with her, wasn't pleased with her as she questioned her loyalty and showed her where she'd end up if she did not accept him into his life. Buzkirk says she resisted and he told her that he simply that my word says the woman she had the woman said she had clarity over past drinking and smoking weed and realized she was going to hell based on my own free will choices. She said she replied to God that now she knew Jesus, and when it spoke it did the same thing with a cracked and thunderous sound that shook her like a dead man's twice. She explained the sound, said that even though very demons believe in Jesus, how say you do better. Then uh it was revealed in the moment of truth that I couldn't argue. She claimed God took her through all her sins one by one and gave her an opportunity to accept him, only for him to turn his back on her. So this is kind of like um oh Christmas Carol. That's what I'm thinking about here, where they're going through the life Yeah, like uh Ebenezer Scrooge here. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I can I can kind of see that.
SPEAKER_02It wasn't until she was thrown into a spiritual pain inside of her physical body that she should soon changed her ways. In the interview, she says she thought she said she's she thought she was someone who said, If God is real, why would he let this happen to me? However, her near death experience led her to believe she also let her claim to seeing such signs such as a born-again Christian called John, who said he was John the Baptist from the Bible. She also met a nun who she believes was Mary. Van Buskirt said after her experience she met the paternal side of her family after running away from home and met her Christian uncle and his wife, who took her under her wing uh their wing. She said that she heard the gospel, she knew there was a string pool in her heart from there, and then she went on to go and live a long life as a Christian now to update 61. Okay. So um, very interesting story there, and um I'm gonna ask this question of you, and I don't know if you have an answer for it. Do you think people experience these quote unquote near-death experiences? Do you think it is something that people actually experience, or do you think people read into the stuff that happens to them when they are partially unconscious and things?
SPEAKER_01So look, let me start by saying near-death experiences 100% fall under the realm of what we do on this show. Um, it's absolutely, I mean, it's right in line with with aliens and Bigfoot and and and lake monsters and leprechauns and you know everything um that that has this supernatural aura to it. This is this is in that category for me, and that's why we're talking about it. Now that said, there's a couple things to unpack here. I've said before, and I'm unl Adam, unless you've converted to the devil uh in lately, I think we're both still of the Christian faith. As far as I know, you're not you haven't turned Hindu or anything like that, which is nothing wrong with that if that's what you did. But we're of the Christian faith. So I I want to tread lightly here uh with some of the things I say, because the last thing I want to do is anything that it that that uh that seems blasphemous. Uh I just don't want to do that. Now, to answer your question, do I believe in near death experiences? Yes, I a hundred percent do. There are too many too many people that have experienced it. And the thing is, Adam, the thing that you have to really um embrace, I guess, is that there are so many of these stories that align and are similar. There's there's so many of these stories that have pieces of them that are so similar. Um like you hear it all the time about people saying when they when they die um they find themselves sort of at a at an uh up or high position looking down on the scene, which she mentioned, I think that that uh that something similar like that happened in her case. Um there's just too many of these stories that align. Now there's a book I read one time, um, and it was they actually based a m a movie off the book, uh, What Dreams May Come. Have you ever seen that movie with Robin Williams?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I'm laughing. Uh in college, I was known to partake of some uh some substances and stuff like that, and we did that, and we were going to watch that movie, and I just remember my friend laughing. He goes, Wet dreams may come. That's what I remember about that movie, but I do remember the movie. I know it is it it's based on a book. Did you say that?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I read the book.
SPEAKER_02You read the book. Did you like the book?
SPEAKER_01I did. And here's what I'm saying. So the movie Okay, go ahead. Well, here's what I'm gonna tell you about the book. Here's where I'm going with this. First of all, it was written and I feel like crap. I can't remember the author's name. But it's this he was a a uh well-known author. He actually wrote the book, uh, the movie I Am Legend was based on. Um he was a very good author, but he has a whole section in the beginning of that book, and he basically says everything that you're about to read in this book is based on fact. And he said the characters are made up, you know, the overall narrative of what happens, the plot and everything is made up, but all the pieces and that uh the the backdrop of this story when this main character passes away and all the things that happened to him and what happens to him in the afterlife, he very specifically says at the beginning of the book, he did tons of research on it, and he said, Everything that you're reading uh that happens to him is based on factual accounts that have been taken from people that had these near-death experiences. So when you when you read something like that at the beginning of a novel, you kind of read it from then on with a sort of with a different lens than you would just any standard uh book of fiction. Um so yes, I I've I've always believed in near-death experiences. Um I certainly believe a lot of what she's saying here. I don't know. Now I don't know if she came back and met John the Baptist and Mary uh was hanging out as a nun. I don't know if I believe all that. I'm not saying it ain't true. I'm just saying I believe the near-death experience. I don't know about all the stuff when she comes back. That's uh that's sort of uh a different topic, but what what are your thoughts on it?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I do agree that there are near-death experiences where people do that. You know, the the big thing always is don't walk towards a light or I see a light coming down like a tunnel or something too. That's one of the most common things. Those out-of-body experiences as she describes, like being able to see the crash site, people describe that a lot. Um but I always, like I said, I do believe in those, but also I'm a skeptic of people at heart. I think some people just regurgitate that stuff because other people have said it, and they think, well, I had to have this experience as well because I almost died. I had a hard, I had a bad wreck, and I was unconscious for a while. So I think some people just utilize that, but I do believe in them. I do believe there are um bits and pieces that are true.
SPEAKER_01So well, sure. And of course, there's always people out there that's gonna make stuff up. Those people exist, and and there's something to the fact that you see so many of these stories, and people will people read these stories and then fabricate their own, take pieces of things they've heard and then fabricate their own story. Of course, that sort of thing exists. But there are a lot of compelling accounts that I think are legit. The name of the author was Richard Matherson, by the way. That's right. That's right. It's a good book. I recommend it for people, especially if you're fearing death. Um, I recommend it. It's it's a pretty it's not a very long novel, but it's a good book. And it kind of, if anything, I think it may give you a little bit of comfort about facing death. Now, what you do as far as um what you believe as far as religion, uh, you know, I'm I say I'm never gonna get on here and preach to people. I will say if you're looking for a religion, I highly recommend Christianity. That's all I'll say about it. Um I don't want this to become a podcast where we're we're being real preachy. But the overall theme here is is near-death experiences. And I I do I I believe it's a legit thing. I believe and but and by the way, I believe there's there's good near-death experiences and there's bad ones. And she kind of spoke to to the bad side of that. Yeah, bad one. Yeah. And and I'm not gonna get I'm not gonna get into any personal details here, but I do know that my mother, when I was being born, there was some struggles and there was some close calls, and there was some there was some difficulties that she had where they didn't think she was gonna survive. And there's some things that she's told me that she experienced during that time that I'm just gonna I'm gonna keep it to myself, it's personal, but I I actually have a personal uh connection to that. I just I believe it's a legit thing. I believe it happens, and uh you know, we'll leave it at that. I'm sure it's not the last time that we're gonna talk about a near-death experience, but I thought that was interesting uh when it popped up in the in the old email box. Anything else on this? You are we ready to move on to mine? Let's move on to the next story. Well, good, because this one, Adam, this one of course deals with aliens. Yeah. We have to talk about aliens at least once in almost every episode. So uh this one comes from earthsky.org. Uh the headline says Alien Tech on the Moon. Scientists propose search for microscopic debris. So basically we we scientists are always have always been searching for intelligent extraterrestrial life. That's nothing new. Uh they focused on a short list of standard possibilities. In other words, they've searched for radio signals, laser pulses, uh, or other techno signatures. But now there's a team of scientists uh led by the S E T I Institute. I'm trying to remember what that stands for. Um what was S T I? What did that stand for? I don't know. See if you can find that out while I keep going. S E T I. Um anyway, a team of scientists led by the S E T I Institute. They have a new idea. The the researchers there are proposing that we search the moon's surface for microscopic bits of material shed by alien technology. The moon would act sort of as a collection plate uh as it currently is. So it noted uh this institute noted in a statement on September the 8th, 2026, the study presents the first quantitative quantitative framework for testing whether microscopic technosignatures could accumulate in lunar soil over the past billions of years. Um so basically that their proposed scenario is pretty simple. If an alien civilization ever did have advanced technology in the space near Earth, then space weather, which is the changing conditions of charged particles, plasma, magnetic fields, and radiation throughout our solar system, it might gradually have worn down this alien debris to microscopic bits. As a result, the structures could shed microscopic bits of debris. Those particles would then drift in space, perhaps even spreading across the entire galaxy. Uh the idea is similar to that of how microplastics have spread around Earth, contaminating almost everything. Um so basically they want to scoop up lunar soil, uh they want to send some sort of probe to the moon, take samples of lunar soil, and then test it uh, you know, for these uh microscopic engineered particles uh that would be potential traces of technologies that could have existed billions of years ago before human civilization. What are your thoughts on on this uh this idea, I guess?
SPEAKER_02All right. Well, first of all, SETI stands for search for extraterrestrial intelligence, is what SETI stands for.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so um actually when I was reading about it just real briefly there, uh they rely a lot on Carl Sagan. Um, if you know who that is. Uh I'm sure you do, but our listeners out there may not know that he is a very famous science fiction author, very much along the lines of L. Ron Hubbard. I think if most people would know that uh there. Um uh there's this thing on YouTube, it's called uh Epic Rap Battles of History. Yeah. And there's one where it's got um uh Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking. He said, What does he say, baking up raps from scratch, like my man Carl Sagan? So I always think about that one.
SPEAKER_01I've forgotten that those even existed. That's old, Adam. That goes back several, several years.
SPEAKER_02They just made a new one not too long ago. They're not as good as they used to be. They really are not. They're releasing like one every four or five months, or one every two a year, something like that. I can't remember, but they are not nearly as good. The last one that was great was the George R.R. Martin and the um J.R.R. Tolkien. That was that one was hilarious. Um, but anyway, so um so this institutes looking there. So what do I think about Alien Tech? We have said this on the show before that I do believe in extraterrestrial life. I believe that it's out there. I believe that just like we're probably out searching for extraterrestrial life, there's uh extraterrestrial life out there looking for us. So I think from that standpoint, the fact that things happen there. Um, I can't remember, is it the Voyager? Is that the is that the uh off the top of your head you may not remember it either. I think it is the NASA satellite that has gone the furthest from Earth. I believe that's correct. It's got some I was hearing something like they said now if they want to turn on the camera, they couldn't because it would take something like 10 years to get the signal to it and 10 years for it to operate, and they've shut down all but like the base sensors or something like that for it to reply back. Um I can't remember the bit the exact parts of it um there, but it's my understanding that it's reached uh interstellar space now, and and yes, the Voyager. Yeah, I think it's I think it's gone outside of our galaxy.
SPEAKER_01Voyager one and Voyager 2 were launched August 20th, 1977.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So, but anyway, they have expanded past our galaxy, and so they're not really working, so they're just out there. So if you're alien and I can't think of the name of the planets, but I know the one they supposedly think is supposed to be closest to us outside or something, is it Alpha Centauri or something along those lines? So, you know, if you're out there in Alpha Centauri and all of a sudden you get this p this the satellite breaking up and falling to Earth, you know, I think people there. So uh the fact that we're looking for potential alien technology that has perhaps land on the moon that's missed us, I think that's a worthwhile endeavor because um, you know, and we we talk lots about different types of entertainment. This is how these movies start, you know. Think about uh Project Hail Mary. He just happens to sense the other thing, uh the uh Rocky spaceship over there, and then they end up meeting together after exchanging um coordinates or whatever. So I think that that is a worthwhile exit, and I don't know quite how it works in terms of what they do, but um I do think there is potential for them to find things there. Uh I think that um there's just as good I I would probably say that it's probably a better chance that the stuff lands on the Earth but lands on the moon, but you never know. Um, you know, all the comic books you read as a kid, they were like secret moon bases with whole looks of aliens and different things on them. Uh the one that comes to my mind immediately is the Marvel and Humans.
SPEAKER_01Uh but like I said, it's actually I mean it's a new idea. It's not anything I've heard of before. I I and I think it's a worthwhile. I mean, what the heck? I mean, uh what they're saying, it makes logical sense because if there were other extra extraterrestrial beings out there, first of all, maybe maybe there was something in our galaxy a long time ago, and there may be something from those millions or billions of years ago that can be found in the lunar soil. But hey, it's one of those, it's like uh it's like uh Wayne Gretzky says, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. We won't know unless we we try it, right? Nobody's tried it before. So um even if it's little particles of things that are in the lunar soil, um, we won't know until we look. So I think it's kind of a cool idea. So we'll see what happens with that.
SPEAKER_02Uh what's what's the thing from the office? You miss a hundred percent of shots you don't take. Yeah, and Michael Scott, he claimed it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he claimed that quote for himself.
SPEAKER_02Point Gracey, yeah, Michael Scott. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that's right. All right. Well, that's it for Fringe Headlines. So let's get into our topic tonight. I already know Adam's gonna really, really struggle with this one. Um, so listen, let me tell you straight up, Adam, the way here's how you pronounce the creature's name. Mikhaile Mbimbi.
SPEAKER_02I would have never got that because I would have said Mokowie Mbebe.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's the Mokley Mbimbe. So I can't wait to hear. I cannot wait uh to hear you take this one on. So why don't you tell us a little bit uh about the history and the and the origin of the Mokeley Mbimbe, Adam? All right.
SPEAKER_02So deep in Central Africa lies the Congo Basin. The Congo is uh a river, and uh so the basin there is like the Mississippi Valley or whatever there. It's uh just a large river, large, they they call it the large one of the largest and most remote rainforest regions on earth. It contains enormous rivers, swamp, and dense jungle with areas that have historically been extremely difficult for outsiders to reach. And somewhere in that wilderness is mostly a creature known as the Mokalee and Bambidi. Good job. Great job. I'm proud of you. That's that's one down. So the name is generally translated as some something that likes one who stops the flow of rivers. That is its name. One who stops the flow of rivers. The creature is traditionally described as enormous, roughly the size of an elephant with four long necks, or excuse me, four legs, a long neck, a long tail, and a relatively small head. Uh in other words, it sounds remarkably like a sauropod dinosaur.
SPEAKER_01Uh, if you're not sure about those, uh, I know Chris is a big is it Bronosaurus, Brchiosaurus, which one like one of them's not real anymore, but well, there's they're really sauropods are any of the long-necked dinosaurs, and if you if you want to dumb this down, if you've seen the land before time, Littlefoot was a sauropod. There's really three main um well, there's more the three major groups of sauropods are titanosaurs, uh diplodakoids. I I had it earlier. I don't know why I can't say it all of a sudden, and then brachiosaurs are the three main uh major groups of sauropods. So anyway, yes, it's uh what did you say abranosaurs, which I bronosaurus is the one that's the one that's not really a thing anymore, correct?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And I think that's what Littlefoot was with a bronosaurus back in the day. And it's diplotoids.
SPEAKER_01Diploticoids. I don't know why I was struggling with that so much.
SPEAKER_02Well, anyway, so when you think about those dinosaurs, um what you want to think about is how they look there. So stories about unusual creatures in Central Africa were being recorded by European explorers and missionaries as far back as the 19th and early 20th centuries. Eventually, some of those accounts became connected to the idea that dinosaurs may have survived in the Congo. Uh, one of the most important modern investigations come in the early 1980s when biologist and cryptozoologist Roy Mackel, is that how you say it? Mackle, MacLe.
SPEAKER_01Um I love how you when you say names that you can't you're not sure about, you always say them with a question mark on the end. Roy Mackel? Uh yes, I believe that's correct.
SPEAKER_02All right. So Roy Mackel traveled to the Congo to investigate the reports of the Mokay Mbimbe. Very good. Mackle interviewed local residents and investigated remote areas of where the creature was supposedly seen. He didn't seem to believe it had to be a dinosaur. He was interested in the possibility that an unloan large animal might exist there. And that's when things got interesting. Uh because despite all the expeditions and speculation, no one has ever produced a verified body, skeleton, DNA sample, or photograph of the Mokeley Mbimbi. But there are a lot of outwitness stories, and that's what Chris is going to get into. Now, let me ask you this. Um what did you think about when you when you were putting this story together? What did you think about the uh Mokeley Mbimbi? What type of animal, uh what other story think do you think goes along with this?
SPEAKER_01Well, I have no idea what you're fishing for here. Do you mean the Lochness Monster? Okay. Um Okay, Loch Ness Monster and the Lochness monster was like uh an aquatic marine reptile, uh prehistoric marine reptile, uh Plesiosaurus, I think, was what it was called. That's what people thought that was. This one actually walks on land.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but still, a long neck, you know, that's what a lot of people associate with the loch net monster. Um what's the other one? Is it Champy? Is Champy the one in Lake Champ? Champ, okay. Uh in Lake Champlain. So this is not an uncommon story that people have heard of very similar in other places, but this is unique to this area here. And um, I think it's interesting that they say it's the one that can uh stops the flow of water because you think about a large, I don't know how big sauropods were, but say they were like 70 tons, 100 tons, or whatever. That's like what, 20 times the size of elephants, you know, they get in the water like that and it would block it up. So I think the name's very fitting based on that.
SPEAKER_01Well, they were all different sizes, you know, like most other types of dinosaurs. Um, so anyway, let's let's dig into this a little bit now that Adam kind of gave us the backstory on it. And when you do start digging into the McCaule and Bembi, what surprised me wasn't necessarily the dinosaur theory. Uh, it was how many people supposedly described seeing something enormous and unusual in the water and swamps of the Congo. Some of these stories are actually pretty strange. I want to talk about some of the eyewitness accounts. So, one of the recurring descriptions comes from the people that are traveling along the rivers in the Congo. Witnesses have described seeing what initially looked like a large animal partially submerged in the water. And then they noticed something really unusual: a long neck rising above the vegetation. The animal was described as having a large body, four legs, and a long tail. In some accounts, the animal reportedly disappeared back into the water before the witnesses could get a really good look at it, which that's kind of telling. Um, and that's one of the frustrating things about almost every Mo'Kay and Bimby report. You don't get 10 minutes to study the thing. You literally only have a few seconds. You see some movement, a neck pops up, you see a body, and then the thing is gone. Uh, no, not really any time to react to get pictures or uh or a really, really good look at it. At least that's what people say. Uh a lot of the McKelly and Bimby reports are associated with Lake Taylor or Taley, not sure which way how to pronounce that, but it's a remote lake in the Republic of the Congo. Local people have reportedly described large animals living in or around that lake, and some accounts describe something moving through the water with a large portion of its body visible above the surface uh above the surface. Um others describe an animal standing near the shoreline. There are reports that the creatures supposedly avoid people, but can become aggressive if they are approached. Uh, one of the most interesting claims is that local people supposedly know certain areas where the animals are found and avoid those areas. Whether that is evidence of an actual creature or simply just part of the folklore surrounding the lake is impossible to really establish. Uh, but the reports there are remarkably persistent over the years. And some of the most uh dramatic accounts describe the Mokale and Bimby becoming aggressive toward people. In these stories, witnesses encountered the creature while traveling by boat or canoe, and at that point the animal supposedly reacted to their presence and moved toward them. And in some versions, people claim that it actually attacked or attempted to overturn the boat. And I have some theories on that that we'll get to in a minute. There are also accounts attributed to the missionaries and European travelers who supposedly heard f firsthand descriptions from local residents. The descriptions often contain the same basic characteristics. You've got the large body, the long neck, the four legs, the long tail, and then it lives around water. It's the same thing over and over. Perhaps most importantly, the animal was sometimes described as something that people already knew about. In other words, these weren't necessarily people saying I saw a monster. Uh they were supposedly describing an animal that they truly believed just lived in their environment, that it was just part of the uh part of the ecosystem there. That distinction to me is pretty fascinating that they they just accept it as part of the the w the local wildlife. Um another recurring part of the stories is what this animal supposedly eats. The McKayley Mbimbi is generally described as a plant eater, which sauropods that's what they were known to be. Uh witnesses have supposedly reported seeing vegetation along the riverbanks disturbed or eaten by something that they couldn't explain. Some accounts even describe the animal as having particular areas where it likes to feed. Now that would make sense if we're talking about some sort of large herbivore that lives in the area, but it also creates a major problem. A large animal eating enough vegetation to survive would leave evidence. You would I mean you would think we would see some tracks, um, animal droppings, or in this case dinosaur droppings, uh damaged plants, carcasses, bones, something. And that's something investigators have never been able to de definitively produce. Now, you talked about Roy Mackel. So when Roy Mackel conducted his expedition in the 1980s, he interviewed people who claimed to have seen the creature. And some supposedly drew pictures of what they had seen. And what is interesting is that some of the descriptions shared similarities. The large body, the long neck, the tail, the legs, the aquatic environment, they all shared those uh those characteristics. Michael considered those similarities significant enough to continue investigating. But here's the problem similar descriptions don't necessarily prove that witnesses saw the same animal. People, as we've found from other stories we've done, can influence one another. Stories can be passed from generation to generation, and people just at some point begin to believe it and accept it as fact. And once the idea of a dinosaur becomes part of the conversation, that can potentially influence what people believe that they saw. So what could they have seen? Um there are lots of possibilities. The big one for me, especially with the people that was talking about overturning boats and things like that, is a hippopotamus. Maybe a hippopotamus seen from an unusual angle. Um people could mistake it for a dinosaur. Now it certainly doesn't have a long neck, but hippopotamuses have been known, especially in that region, to try to overturn boats. Maybe a crocodile, maybe a large monitor lizard, which looks like a living dinosaur, if you've ever seen one of those. Multiple animals maybe moving together. Maybe they were seeing more than one animal in unison, and it it appeared to be one massive animal. Maybe it was just something partially submerged in murky water that wasn't even an animal at all. Or maybe there is an animal out there that just hasn't been properly identified yet. Maybe there is some truth to this, but there is another possibility. The Mokeley and Bimby stories may represent several different animals and legends that eventually became one creature. So a lot of stories that sort of got mixed together and became one creature. But here's here's the really weird part even after you strip away the dinosaur theory, you're still left with something interesting. The Congo is an enormous place, and it's very remote and it's very difficult to explore. And scientists absolutely continue to discover previously unknown species all the time. You know, the one that comes to mind, it wasn't in the Congo, but I think when I was a kid, I was fascinated with the story of the coelacanth. Do you remember that? The prehistoric fish that was thought to be extinct, and then they came out of the side. Yeah, that and uh what was the shark they too they found? Uh Mako. Was it Mako they found some? I don't know. But I know what you're talking about. There was a there was some type of shark. But the the coelacanth really stands out, and that's the thing that everyone points to when you have stories like this and say, look, it's possible there could be something out there that has managed to survive extinction, and we just haven't been able to find it yet. Um, so the the idea that there could be some sort of undiscovered animal in the Congo is not really that crazy. The crazy part is you know the the belief that it truly could be a dinosaur. Um, I don't know about that, you know. If someone actually found one of these things, though, you mentioned uh Nessie, uh the Lochness monster. Forget about that, forget about Bigfoot. Can you imagine how big that would be if someone actually found a real live sauropod out in the middle of the Congo jungle? Finding a living dinosaur would probably be the greatest zoological discovery in human history. Would you agree?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I think you know, um I I a living dinosaur would be the biggest discovery there. I think outside of that, you're probably looking along something lines of like Bigfoot or something like that. Uh, but I would say a dinosaur because of the history and because of its uh the um the connotation associated with it would be the largest thing there. Uh not just not uh not uh literally speaking, but figuratively speaking as well. I just think that would be a huge deal uh because if it's truly a dinosaur and the way that it's lived and survived, how did it live and how it survived, how is it reproduced and all that, I think that would be an interesting angle for people to look at and review.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's pretty fascinating. And I have I have been fascinated with dinosaurs. And so like we said in an earlier uh episode of when we're talking about Bigfoot, I wrote I've written books about Bigfoot, fit novels, fiction. I've also wrote uh uh what I think is a pretty good trilogy related to dinosaurs. Um so I I have I've studied a lot of dinosaurs, I know a lot about dinosaurs. Um I mean I just can't tell you how and I'm a huge Jurassic Park fan, by the way. And I think most most kids, and when we were, what were were we were like 12, 13 come out? 13. Um, which is still an age where you you know you're fascinated with these things, and that's just a fascination that never left me, which is one of the reasons why I thought it would be a good topic tonight. If somebody found one of these, it would be amazing. Now, do the odds of it happening, I think, are slim to none at this point. I don't expect somebody in the next few years to find one of these things. You may feel differently, but I don't.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't think they're gonna find it anytime soon because if they could have, they already would have, because people have been out searching for it. And like you said, the Congo is a very large, remote place, but I think something that large, if people uh had been out constantly looking for it, which it kind of seems like they have, I think they would have possibly found I think they would have probably found it by now. But they haven't, so you know, but I do want to say this. Um, you were talking about your book. Have you ever heard of the Savage Land from Marvel's comics?
SPEAKER_01Savage Land? It uh I think that's about dinosaurs, isn't it? I think I've heard of it.
SPEAKER_02Yes, they have they have dinosaurs there. It is a place what happened is got um it's in Antarctica, and I believe that it's under the ice there, and they have their own sun, and I don't know quite how it works, or something, maybe it's an artificial sun, but they do have dinosaurs and animals that live there. And uh, you know, I always wonder about could there have been some some type of uh not the actual garden of Eden, but the Garden of Eden where you know time had forgotten you know and stuff survived. Uh but you know you would have to have two for them to survive and them to carry on. Uh but I think with that kind of stuff there, them having um new children, of course. Now their children may live 300, 400 years, so it may not have been some time that you know that they've been through there, but you would feel as if there would be some um rigid proof. You know, there would be some pictures, some bones, some, you know, even like you know, you're talking about it eating uh leaves and stuff like that. Think about like a uh a sauropod eating leaves on top of trees. You would think you would look at something like that and it couldn't be explained away because it would be too big for a bird to be eating it, or you know, too high for any other type of animal to be eating. So you'd think there'd be some proof at least in that. No, I agree.
SPEAKER_01And you know, and that's that's kind of the one of the fun things is trying to figure out if it is a dinosaur, how did it manage to escape extinction with your your idea, you know, you said about uh uh some something like the Garden of Eden or somewhere that was like forgotten about. Like in the books that I wrote, I took the uh the legend of the fountain of youth, uh, you know, Ponce de Leon, it was searched for the fountain of youth over in the Caribbean, and I sort of use that as an island in the Caribbean where the fountain of youth was located, and and dinosaurs that were able to drink from the waters of that managed to escape extinction. So I don't think anything magical like that's going on, but if there is something there, how did it escape extinction? Which is another interesting question. Again, bottom line, I don't think there's anything out there, and I'll I'll leave it because that's kind of where we end things, is whether or not we truly believe this. I don't believe there's anything out there, I don't believe we'll ever find uh a real living sauropod in the Congo. How about you?
SPEAKER_02Uh I kind of differ with you on this, not from the standpoint I think they will find it, but I just have a belief that the world is so big, there's so many hidden things in the world that there's always potential. And the fact that we do know that dinosaurs are real, although, you know, I know I think it's you and me that have had the conversation where there's certain people who don't believe dinosaurs are real.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's just absolutely that I can't I don't even want to say the word I want to use, but that's that's bonkers.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but uh there are people who believe or believe that we lived at the same time as dinosaurs. There are some people who believe that.
SPEAKER_01Let's say let's touch on that real quick. There are people out there, and and this again, uh, you remember a few weeks ago I went on this rant about people of Christian faith saying you can't be a Christian and believe in aliens. There are certain people that claim to be Christian that say that uh if you if you if you are are Christian, you you have to believe that at one point you know the dinosaurs were here two thousand years ago and we're we're living with people. That's just that's bull. Um that's not true. I mean, we've been able to prove it was millions of years ago. But it's like I said, and the way I explain it, and I and I think it's okay to take a minute to explain this for people like us that may be struggling to be able to say, hey, I'm I'm of the Christian faith, but I also have a scientific mind. Look, how many days did it say God took to create the world? How many days? Uh six and he rested on the seven. Correct. Do you really think that a day for God is 24 hours like it is for us? No, I don't. I don't. So I think it could be a day for God could be millions of years.
SPEAKER_02I think a lot of the time in the early part of the Bible is a misnomer anyway, but you know, I think I know a lot of people will think that's blasphemy when you say, well, you know, like um is it Nebuchadnezzar that lived 800 years or whatever? I I don't necessarily think that's right. I think they measured time differently and wrote it down, and we just translated it as is.
SPEAKER_01And that's probably true. But I'll tell you one thing I'm I've I'm pretty certain of is that time to God is completely different than it is to mere mortal human beings who have little tiny short lifespans. I just I don't I I just I hate when people just try to to to shoehorn things together to make them to make it fit. And I just I hate that.
SPEAKER_02Well, we talk about movies and films a good bit on here. I don't know if you remember the Watchman movie. I know you're going to talk about what's your favorite part of that movie. That is not my favorite part. I just said I just said Dr.
SPEAKER_01Manhattan Swinging Manhood should have gotten its own billing in the credits, is all I'm saying.
SPEAKER_02But anyway, um hey, there's a part in there where he says, I don't experience time like you. I'm in the past, I'm in the future, I exist all at once. And I think that's how most people believe that God experienced. He can see into the future, see the past.
SPEAKER_01Do you think it's most people though? Because I tend to think most people don't. I think most people try to apply how we view time to how God would view time. And that's my whole argument here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I I don't know. I what most people believe, I don't know, because I I see people believe stuff all the time that I can't believe that they believe. But I think most people would think that God is um omnipotent and therefore he does control, uh he is able to see through the flow of time. So I think most people try to understand time and what we understand it as. Uh, but as we said last week, we got two years and we'll be able to talk about time traveling.
SPEAKER_01We'll be able to do some time travel and we'll figure it all out. We'll put it all to bed.
SPEAKER_02But um I I do think that there is potential of some type of animal like this being out in the wild, be it I mean, it's the same thing with Bigfoot. There's a potential that there is some type of uh primate that is out in the woods that is more humanoid, um, more community, you know, huge, large, whatever you want to say it, than what we have like in gorillas and things like that. Now, I think a lot of that just comes back from people being scared and developing those stories. I think this is where a lot of this one comes from. But I would not be surprised if one day we found bones out in the middle of the Congo and they come back and say, hey, this seems a tar pod, and instead of being here 20 million years ago, this looks like it's only here like 10,000 years ago. And maybe this is a story that's been passed down from people from there. So uh I could see something like that happening.
SPEAKER_01And that makes a lot of sense. You know, that would make sense, that would be logical and would explain why people just sort of accepted it over time uh and just embraced it as part of the wildlife there. That would make sense. So I guess we kind of differ a little bit on this, um, but that's okay. That's why we talk about this stuff. It's fun to talk about. So uh with that in mind, I think we're done with the McKayley and Bimby. Um, if you like this show, we encourage you to rate and review it uh on whatever um platform you use to listen to podcasts. Uh rating and reviewing obviously helps us grow it. Um, if you have an idea of a something you'd like for us to cover, something you think we've probably never heard of and would be interesting to talk about, please email us at Chris and Adam Podcast at gmail.com. That's all one word, Chris and Adam Podcast at gmail.com. Anything else, Adam?
SPEAKER_02No, just very interesting. Something I never really heard of this before. I know a lot of times we look at this, a lot of stuff, like I said, like I believe this story does share the same similarities. It's like the Loch Ness or Champ or some of those same long lines there. Uh, but interesting, a little different because like Champ and Loch Ness are I don't know how Loch Ness is, but I know Champ's in a fairly situated area, very uh settled area is what I'm trying to say there. Lots of houses, lots of people, people spend their summers on Lake Champlain, so and no one's ever seen that. So that leads me to believe that those things are a little less believable than this in the remote parts of the Congo.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we'll get to, trust me, we'll eventually get to Nessie and Champ and lots of other things like that. We'll get to them in the future. Uh, but for now, I was just trying to do, especially in these early episodes, was trying to find obscure things that maybe maybe most people haven't heard of. Um, and this is certainly one I think that falls into that category, unless you happen to be living in the Congo and listening to this right now. Um, but with that, I think we'll leave it right here. So we'll see you next time on another episode of Chris and Adam versus the Unknown.
